Working With the UN in Afghanistan

How Leaders Can Bring People Together

How to Engage People in Long-Term Change

Navigating Corporate Cultures

The Power of Storytelling

Michael Fors

There was a culture but it needed to be improved diversity really made us stronger, diverse backgrounds, diverse ideas, diverse religions. Talk about this being more of a marathon than a sprint.

Dave Underhill

Hi, I'm Dave Underhill and welcome to Speak Up! Sometimes it feels like the problems we're facing today are so complex that it's hard to tell if we're making any progress in solving them. Our guest believes we do have what it takes to tackle these challenges, if we can work across the political, cultural, and professional boundaries that often keep us apart. For the past 30 years, MF has dedicated his time and energy to growing leaders who can bridge those boundaries. He's currently in charge of Boeing's leadership development. And prior to this, he was in charge of leadership and employee development efforts at Microsoft and Intel, reaching over 100,000 employees across the globe. Outside of his corporate roles, Michael partnered with the UN to develop leaders in war-torn countries like Afghanistan and South Sudan. With a background like this, I thought it would be interesting to talk to him about his experiences with the UN, his approach to developing global leaders, and what today's leaders need to do to bring people together.

Michael, great seeing you again, thank you for joining us on this episode of Speak Up!

Thanks, Dave. Thanks for having me. Glad to be here.

As we've worked over the years, I've really been impressed by the work that you've done globally, in the corporate world, with the UN. You obviously have a passion for developing people, but also really working on a fairly large scale globally. Where did that passion come from? As far as working with different cultures?

Yeah, when I think about it way back to the beginnings when I was a child growing up, my grandparents had given me a projector that contained slides of different countries from around the world. It came with a companion booklet. And I'd sit for hours in my room, projecting onto the wall, sitting on the hardwood floor and just learning about different countries around the world. And it just made me want to go visit and have adventures in all these places that that exist in the world.

As you went through school, like elementary school, or high school or college. Did that interest continue? And if it did, how did you pursue it? Maybe academically?

Yeah, well, I was always seeking out books to read on different cultures and different adventure books and people traveling around the world and getting to explore and really try out all these different things. And, you know, really connect with people around the world. I think, you know, one thing I noticed was, we have a lot in common, more in common than we don't. But it's these differences. They really make us strong and give us strength. So I continued that throughout school, I had a chance to study some foreign languages. I studied French, I went and studied abroad in in Provence in France. And that was a great chance to really get to know Europe and and France in particular. But I traveled around to many different countries - in 12 different countries during that summer, after I finished my study abroad program. And that just made me want to travel the world even more.

Yeah. And then how about the part around it? You mentioned people as you're going through all that, you're really curious about the people and how they developed into who they are and how they interact with each other. In school, when you think about that, when did it click in for you that this might be a career or a profession that you could pursue?

Yeah, well, I really liked how people with diverse ideas and opinions and backgrounds came together to to solve problems. And I learned that early on in school. As I was going through, you know, studying and studying abroad, then I had a couple of experiences that led me to really want to take this to more of a global level and make it more of a profession. One thing was I, I worked in summers during college as a tour guide, taking people up into Canada, to Banff and Lake Louise and Jasper with Princess Cruises and Princess tours. And that was a really great chance to start working more globally. You know, just interacting with Canada and different people there. And what they had me do was start to train people and say, hey, you know, could you train new tour guides? Could you train people who could really have the global mindset and go and travel around the world as part of the company? And so I started thinking, hey, maybe this training thing is interesting because I love education. If I can do it globally, that combines my interests in differences and travel, and really getting to explore cultures. And so that's what led to graduate school and led to more of a global professional career.

Sounds like you had a great opportunity from an early age to really find your path. And to have these experiences where you got a sense of, Wow this whole global thing might be an area I want to pursue. How did you first get started in the corporate world, bringing your passion for the global world, but also for developing people?

Yeah, well, after finishing a Master's on the East Coast, I moved to Arizona and was doing a PhD at Arizona State University, and I had an opportunity through your professional association, to make a contact at Intel Corporation and had started an internship there. That led to a full time job, and ultimately led to leading a lot of management, leadership development programs and leading Intel University. And through that experience, I was able to travel the world a lot, even more than I had in the past. All different places, Asia, Middle East, Europe, Central South America, in leading management, leadership development programs. And then one thing I decided to do was to bring together all the training people at Intel from around the world under my organization. So we could have one vision for developing the people of the company. And that was really a chance to work with people from all different cultures around the world and see how diversity really made us stronger in diverse backgrounds, diverse ideas, diverse religions, diverse thought. And we we really came together as a much stronger organization. And that allowed us to serve Intel, and do even greater philanthropy and charity work outside of Intel.

So as you've gone from Intel, to Microsoft, and now to Boeing, how have you gone about learning about those cultures when you first started those new positions, so that you could be effective working within the different cultures?

Yeah, it really is a study in understanding what the values are of the company and what's actually practiced, and then how it plays out globally around the world. You know, for one at Intel, there was a culture when I started there, but it really was looking to be revamped. And our CEO, Andy Grove, wanted to better clarify the culture. And we had, they had concepts like constructive confrontation. And it was meant to be confrontation of issues. And Andy our CEO had written a Fortune article about this, but it wasn't being practiced well within the company. In fact, the term constructive confrontation was being misused as a way to personally attack someone. To stand someone up and really, personally attack them. So what we did was really work to redefine what we meant by the culture and values at Intel. And so that they could really be a layer of ... any diverse person around the world being able to work in that that company culture. And so we had a certain set of values. We wrote observable behaviors for them. We redefined concepts like constructive confrontation, that it was meant to be positive and direct and objective, and timely. And so so then it allowed people a chance to see how these practices could could be really used in the workplace daily. And then as you traveled around the world, you could see how they could apply even given cultural differences. They were a common culture that we could all snap to.

How about then the shift to Microsoft, what was similar there? But what was different there about their culture and, and how you learn to operate?

Yeah, Microsoft was interesting. I think Intel was more, a little more process driven a little more, you know, disciplined and rigid, partly because it's a manufacturing company and microprocessors require it. At Microsoft, it was a little bit more open and loose - more of a software development, creative environment, you know, innovation. And it was global. So it was taking into account quite a few different developers from around the world and sales and consulting services people around the world. And so they were very much in tune with how Microsoft technology and the Microsoft culture could play out in different countries around the world. And I had a set of consultants that I worked with, that I helped lead, that were really digital transformation consultants. And they they really were great at understanding different regions and cultures of the world. How technology would play into it and how Microsoft's values and culture could be could be utilized in doing work around the world.

And then Boeing. Obviously, we think of it as a global company, but a very different culture that I'm sure Intel or Microsoft have.

Yeah, it's been more of an American culture within Boeing, because that's where most of the employees live. You know, in major sites like in Puget Sound, or St. Louis or Philadelphia, you know, different other sites like that. It's the largest exporter, but it has huge number of customers globally. But the the employee population base is almost all American-based. Now, the company is expanding. So it's had a presence in the UK and Australia, starting to expand more in India, Poland, in Brazil. And so it's really learning to become more of a global company. You know, back at Intel, when I was running Intel U, we had a group of cross- cultural people doing training, and really helping the company and its employees understand how to work globally. Boeing is just now getting there and starting to stretch its wings and teach it to people how to really work better globally. And how the Boeing culture, corporate culture, then plays out in different countries around the world.

We've worked on projects that were longer term, what might we'll call - you used word transformations. 2, 3, 4 years long. Whether it's a digital or organizational transformations, and sounds like Boeing's going through that, too. So as you work with leaders, and you develop leaders in these different companies, what do you talk to them about, as far as how do they keep their people engaged? How do they use their leadership voice to keep people involved in these long term change efforts?

Yeah, you know, I'd left Microsoft to go to Boeing for a new challenge. And it was because Boeing was really digitally transforming all aspects of its company. It's digitizing, engineering, manufacturing, supply chain, all these major entities at once. And so what we're, what I'm helping lead is that transformation around to new tools, new processes, new training, even roles are transforming. And so we talked about this being more of a marathon than a sprint. We have contracts that are 30 years to help create new digitized tools and processes. So while it's a very long, ongoing effort to keep upskilling, the culture and the people. So when we first talked about it being a marathon, not a sprint, and then we let people know the different elements that need to play into this. So definitely, there's new technology, new work processes that need to happen.

Roles will change and leaders need to evolve the culture, because the work itself will be evolving and changing, more digitized, more use of data, more global. So really helping people prepare for all these changes in the way things will be digitized and automated. And so it's really helping bringing people along on the journey to understand what we're doing, why we're doing it, how there'll be new tools and processes, how the culture will shift, how roles will shift. And helping people see that bigger picture so that they're inspired to to achieve the vision for the company, but also grow themselves personally, because it's a great way for them to stay fresh, and to develop their careers. And keep moving along with this flow that we have going. So you really want to talk about what's in it for them for their career, and help them understand the big picture and why they're a part of a really big deal. There's a sense of urgency, and there's a vision out there that they're we're all looking to achieve together.

You know, as I coach different executives that are in similar situations, one of the things that we talked about is storytelling and how important that is. What's been your experience? Or how do you talk to executives about the importance of storytelling and how they can use that, to keep people engaged on this long journey, this long transformation?

Yeah, I think it's absolutely critical. You know, it just doesn't come to life for individuals, if you talk about it more in an esoteric way where it's, it just doesn't feel like it's a part of them, or there's no story that they can relate to. So if leaders can tell stories about small quick wins that we're getting or you know, steps, big steps toward the future, and how that's impacting people in their lives. You know, real people around being able to develop products and services differently, how careers have been grown, people get promoted. Tell tangible stories, real life stories of parts of the company where this is happening. It goes a long way because then they think, "Well, I want to be a part of that. I want to do that." You know, that sounds really great. I like and see how that impacted these other people. And I think we can create that where I am too.

Yeah, that's great. Those examples, I think, really have impact because they can, people can see how other people like them are engaged in the process, but also seeing some of the benefits of being engaged.

Yeah. And they can see that it's difficult. It's not easy here, there are going to be bumps in the road. But that's all part of it, too. If leaders can convey the progress and The Good, the Bad, and The Ugly, and talk about problems that do exist, people can get their creative juices flowing to try to help solve those problems. And so it's not always rosy. We don't want to paint an overblown picture of how wonderful everything is, when in reality, we want people to engage, be creative and dig in and help solve these problems for the future. Then they feel more of a sense of ownership in really what they're creating.

That's a great point. And one of the things that came to mind, as you were talking is sometimes when I'm working with more technical people, their comfort level around sharing personal stories about themselves, is not there. Right? Yeah, they're used to kind of driving towards the numbers, driving towards the KPIs or OKRs, or whatever the measurement tools are. Give me an example of how in your case, how have you used personal stories, to highlight a leadership principle or something that you want to get across to people?

Yeah, you know, I'm just thinking, we were just telling stories about how we're digitally transforming parts of the company today, and how it can make such a big difference in people's lives. And one of the things we're doing is really - how you do engineering differently, using a digital twin or using model based engineering. And, you know, talking about how, when I first came in, I didn't understand it, I didn't know what it was, or how it worked. And, you know, I've been at Boeing four years. So I'm kind of a baby, most people have been there 20-30 years, or more. Then, you know, it's really a story about my journey of how I came in and tried to understand, couldn't understand it, needed some help. And then once I was able to understand more and more, I could help others understand.

And so now, I totally get that we want to have a digital thread all the way through engineering, into manufacturing and out to the customer. And, it was a way for me to really say, hey, now I understand the vision, I'm starting to be able to help others see how data can be used for the first time ever, all the way through the process. And that's why we're helping people learn data literacy. That's why we're working with execs and then engineers to understand that, but then also working on a project that connects the dots called Development Excellence. That helps create this new framework and process flow for how we manage new product development. It's all about safety and quality and data all the way through. And I wasn't able to connect those dots initially. I was just explaining to people, it's complex enough where I couldn't put the pieces together. But then once I got it, I could start to help others see the vision and where we were headed. And tell my story that it's okay to not understand always and it's not that you're dumb, you just need more time and a chance to dig in and understand better.

Yeah. And so what was the reaction to that story from the folks that were in the group that you're telling that story to?

Well, you know, there was a lot of head nodding. I think they understood that, they'd been on a journey like that in the past, at some point at Boeing, or at another company. And they understood that, "Hey, maybe it was ambiguous and complex, and I didn't quite get it. And I had to overcome that and learn." So I think there was a bit of an understanding more at a personal level, like, oh, yeah, it's not just all technical. It's also cultural and people and an understanding what we're trying to do from a strategy perspective and how all those pieces come together. But then once you get there, and you overcome that learning curve, you can start to see things that you never thought you could, and start to connect dots on "Oh, this, this initiative connects to that." You start to connect the people and the culture and the process and the tools and different programs and projects together and how they all relate and play forward. So then it becomes more like an epiphany and enlightening. But it's a journey, and it's not easy to get there sometimes. I think people started to understand that at a personal level.

Yeah. Now that's excellent. And what came to my mind as you were talking about that is, one, it helps to connect people to you as a person and to each other as people. But that learning challenge that they were going through - it's also that it sets the stage for them to have their own insights. Or maybe a new perspective around that challenge or the transformation that you're going through. So it's nice that you can combine those two. It's like it's a personal connection, but also it helps them with a business insight, perhaps.

Yeah, it's good to be human, you know. We all go through this, and we can't just be, you know, robots or zombies, you know, only focus on technology and metrics and schedule. There's more to it than that. There's collaboration, there's being human, there's being a leader that shows vulnerability. And it's okay. It helps others feel like, "Hey, I can be a little vulnerable too. I need to learn also - I've gone through some tough times learning some new complex things." And you become able to collaborate better, because you're more human together.

One of the things I remember from working with you at Intel and Microsoft is that from time to time, you would almost disappear for a while. And when you came back, and we were working together on a project, you'd say, "Oh, I just got back from Dubai. I just got back from Afghanistan. I was in the Sudan for a while." And you'd mentioned that that was really part of your work with the UN. And I was just very much impressed by that. Both at the time and commitment you took away from the corporate world to do that. But also from the work that you were doing there. So talk a bit about how you first got involved with the UN. And then what are some of the things that you were doing for them? What was your role?

Sure, yeah, I actually went through a leadership program in Seattle I had been nominated for called Leadership Tomorrow. And the joke, there was, "Oh, you don't have to be a leader today or ever, because it's always tomorrow." It was, it was a really good program. And they really encouraged us to find some way to give back. And most people in the Seattle area, were giving back to local Seattle charities, which I thought was great. But for me, I wanted to play on my global passion. And so I met some people who worked at the UN in New York at a conference and I said to them, "Look, you know, I don't have a lot of time to volunteer, (I was leading Intel University at the time.) but if I did, I'd want to come volunteer with you." And we just kind of let that lay. And then they followed up and said, "Let's, let's explore what we could do together." So we started out, providing some training to ambassadors from developing countries in New York City at UN headquarters there. And one thing led to another, suddenly, we were putting - Intel was supporting it. So they supported me doing this. We put Wi-Fi in UN headquarters, and we gave Kofi Annan a laptop back at the day, again, as a donation. We started doing more leadership development training beyond the ambassadors from developing countries.

And then when 9-11 happened, we decided to take our gig on the road. Because we really felt like the people in New York were developing, and they were, they were also a bit more privileged. We wanted to help post-conflict countries. And so we started working with leaders from countries that had been through war. It started with Afghanistan after 9-11. And had a really long running civil development program on leadership development and went 14 years. It was really the longest running development program for Afghanistan. And had a chance to then to travel over a couple times a year to go work with the Afghan leaders. They were leaders of government, nonprofit, and some business leaders as well, trying to regrow their economy and their culture. And so it was a chance to give back I think, a lot of what I learned and have a passion around leadership development.

And so once we did that - it was seen that that was a very successful program, so could we replicate it? So we used it in Iraq, for example. And then also in South Sudan. I actually went into South Sudan when the civil war was going on. I wasn't sure I should do that. But you had to have $2,000 in cash strapped to your body in case you needed to bribe your way out. The State Department said they wouldn't help me - they couldn't help me. And so I took out a lot of life insurance, I had two little kids, and went in there and worked with the leaders of the government for for about 10 days. So you know, I think the lesson was you can still do a lot from afar. You don't have to go right into a war zone. But however, you know, you want to give back you can and should. The quick kind of story out of the South Sudan situation was my partner who is on the ground there with the United Nations Development Program - is name was Francis - was targeted and killed two weeks after I left. He'd been a great partner for me and a big supporter of what we were doing. So it can be dangerous. But anyway, all this to say I wanted to give back and the UN was, has been, the place to do that. I serve as a chairman of the board for a part of the UN called UNITAR now, and still continue to develop programs and leadership and entrepreneurship, innovation. You know, we work a lot with women in technology to grow them as leaders. And so a lot of our work now is expanded into Africa and as well as the Middle East.

I'm sure all those experiences were so different and so rich from just a connection with people in different cultures, but also helping them to like you were saying, rebuild their countries. What would you say the biggest difference is or was between the corporate world and working on the UN side?

Yeah, I mean, in the corporate world, you're able to harness a vision and strategy and execute on it with your resources that you have at hand. Or you can get. You have a budget. In those (UN) cases, it's much more spanning across society to bring resources together and make things work. So governments are involved, multinationals like the UN or the World Bank are involved or the IMF. And then you've got nonprofits who are involved. Universities that are involved. You know, even we brought in professional associations of people who have expertise in engineering or IT to get them involved. And so and then the corporate world, of course, so it's it's a matter of spanning boundaries to pull people together across society. Because it's a, you know, complex, multi-pronged problem that you're dealing with trying to rebuild a country, its economy, its health, its water, its food, housing. How do you go after those multiple problem areas, when you then need to bring together a large number of resources to resolve them, and have an impact? So I think it gets more complex than within a corporation. It can be done and the resources are out there. It just takes really spanning the boundaries and bringing it all together

As you worked with the leaders in those situations. Knowing that there are cultural differences, what were some of the things that you tried to pass along to them about how they could lead those, like you're saying, those broad scale efforts in their country?

Yeah, I think there's some common elements of leadership that really fit and work everywhere. And so that was really the message - was what are these common elements that you can pull together to make to become a successful leader, regardless of situation. Knowing that it has to be applied into the context, right, it has to play out into a different culture and context. And, you know, one thing I think that was important is that the differences can still all be respected, you know - their tribal differences, their religious differences. It's okay, if people have a deeper level of many different differences in their world. What we're trying to do is, you know, take a layer on top of it that everyone can agree to, to develop people for good or whatever the cause is.

And a leader can help create that culture and that set of resources and that vision and that strategy to execute. On top of all the deeper differences that don't need to be touched, but can all still be respected. And in that way, people can come together in a common way, and go after a vision together to help humankind and help the world, without needing to disrupt any of their differences that they have, at a deeper level. And in fact, those deeper level differences create these different perspectives that cause diversity, and come up with better ideas when collaborating together across those differences. So helping them understand that layer of what they were creating, to make a difference, is really important. And then we can get more into, you know, the specific leadership system that I have, which are elements that make it make a leader really strong and effective.

Yeah, well, why don't why don't we go there? Because I know that you talked about a framework that you've developed, based on all your years and experiences in the corporate world, but also globally with the UN. So maybe just talk about the top three things that you try to get across or you think are most important in your framework, like, what do leaders need to do in today's world?

Well, first of all, I think a lot of the world's problems are come about due to poor leadership. You know, people are in it for the wrong reasons. They are in it for their own power and glory, or money, depending on if there's corruption involved. And really, they should be in it to serve people. They serve organizations and people, so it's more about servant leadership. And you know, there was an ambassador at the UN who I got to be good friends with, who always said, if the world's problems can be solved there are plenty of resources around. There's just not - there aren't leaders who come forward with the right vision that can pull together the resources to make it happen. Because it's all there. It's just, you know, do we have the will? And do we have the right leadership with vision to pull it together. And that always really resonated with me, because I do think it's true.

I think that great things can happen in the leadership system, specifically, and the UN chose us the system as a foundation for their own leadership development, developing people within the UN. It really combines elements that people as leaders try to learn over time, by the seat of their pants. You know, like, there's a cultural component, they try different things, and it fails. And it takes years and maybe they'll figure out how to develop a positive culture. You know, strategic planning - they may try some ways, and it's, again, seat of the pants, and it fails and doesn't quite work.

What I tried to convey are 10 elements that work together, like the pistons of a car, and each one needs to work effectively. And then they all need to work in unison, to really create a system where a leader can drive a high performing organization that sets a vision, strategy and accomplishes it. And so it really pulls together things like strategic planning, the right level of governance, structure for the organization, really important with process flows, the right leaders in the organization. They shouldn't just be legacy leaders, they need to be leaders for that cause - for what you're trying to accomplish. Culture becomes important. And then the portfolio of products and services become very important. What do you really producing? Partnerships, financials, and then results in metrics and then a level of personal leadership. And this is where a lot of leadership programs focus, right? It's on who you are, as a personal leader, what's your style? How do you get better as a leader? Well, that is a component of it all. But if you're not getting, you know, steps one through nine right, then you can try to improve yourself as a personal leader all you want. But you've got to get this whole system humming along - all these pistons of the engine performing together. So it's really 10 elements that are more prescriptive - that come together to really help a leader create a high performing organization.

Wow, that's amazing. And I can see clearly that, that metaphor, or those 10 elements, it really came from all of your background, corporate, UN, etc, that you've seen those common elements that need to be in place. So it's more of a system and a framework than it is personal personal leadership development.

Yeah, it really is a culmination, like you say, of all my experiences, I've been working on this for decades, actually. Yeah, it finally came together and kind of coalesced. I could distill it down into these 10 elements. And you teach people how to do each element, and then how they all need to play together and integrate these to be really successful.

Yeah, that's great. Well, thank you. Again, this has been inspiring, enlightening. You and I have known each other, but I've learned a lot just from our conversation here. Part of my vision is to reach out to people like you. Leaders who are sharing their voice, using their leadership voice to make an impact. If people want to get in touch with you, what would be a good place for them to reach out to?

Ah, yeah, I mean, LinkedIn, I'm on LinkedIn. So that's easy. That's probably the fastest and easiest and people can find me out there and be glad to connect and you know, meet with people offline support their careers however I can. And you know, talk about great ideas for the future the world or their their personal career development.

No, thank you. And good luck, continue with all the great work that you're doing.

Thank you and good luck with the series and in all your great work. It's been so amazing being able to connect with you over the years, you know, Intel and then we found each other with Microsoft. And it's been, we've been on this life journey together, and I really appreciate it. The Journey - personally and professional.